Oct 20 2007
Saturday: Via over Vesuvio 3-2 in a tough match
by jmp
Vesuvio is one of those teams that excels at coming back when they are down, and put in maximum effort until the last whistle. On Saturday they proved this point by almost pulling off a reversal when they were a man down and behind by 2 points at the half.
Via showed up with 14 players, so we had subs to spare and we pressed early and hard since Vesuvio only had 9 players. The first goal came off of a quick shot from Diego that Vesuvio keeper, Dave, managed to get his hands on but it still bounced into the goal. The second goal was a Horn family special. Ricky Horn’s mom would be proud to know that her middle son shares with his older brother. Ricky penetrated the Vesuvian defense to the line, then crossed in front of Dave to allow brother Alex Horn to tap the ball into the goal, putting the Bicycles up 2-0 at the half.
It seemed like that was the match, considering Vesuvio was down a player and the momentum was clearly with Via. As stated before, 45 minutes can be a long time.
Vesuvio came out strong in the 2nd half, throwing their talented front line against the Bicycle defense which started to buckle under the pressure. The first response came after a Bicycle foul just outside the box. Vesuvio got on the board on a strong Andy Hallman direct kick that beat the Via keeper to the right post. 2-1. Tasting blood, Vesuvio continued to press and were rewarded by a late half opportunity in front of Via’s left post that was muscled in by Luis. It was now a 2-2 game.
Via tightened up their defense and started pushing back up the field with desperation since we had thrown away a lead against an undermanned (yet still potent) Vesuvio team. The renewed pressure lead to several missed opportunities that could have settled the game so we were just about to settle for a draw when lady luck played her hand. A hand ball in the Vesuvio box with 3 minutes left in the match was the deciding factor. Diego took the penalty and squeezed it past Dave for the win. This game could have gone either way. Vesuvio fought to the end.
36 Responses to “Saturday: Via over Vesuvio 3-2 in a tough match”
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Being the one who committed the handball, I looked up some opinions online and found this immediately. Losing on a penalty after battling back shorthanded is a lame way to go out. I certainly wouldn’t call this game an upset either.
http://asktheref.com/Soccer/Referee/Articles/7/
-Ezra
As the link says, this law is the one that is probably called incorrectly more often than any other. Especially in our league with volunteer referees who do not hold a formal qualification. The key term here is ‘deliberate’.
If a ball is blasted into someone or if it bobbles and bounces up and hits someone’s arm, even if the ball is then diverted in a different direction, it is not ‘deliberately handling the ball’. Play on is the correct call.
Occasionally I may deem that such an accidental handling of the ball might result in one opponent obstructing another, and then give an indirect free kick (indirect for obstruction, not the handball). This law is especially tough for the attacking team to understand, as they feel that the defender has gained an unfair advantage, however just try and remember that there has to be a deliberate attempt to handle the ball. Accidental knocks on the arm do not count as deliberate.
In this league we do not have qualified referees so mistakes are going to be made. Hell, even qualified refs make mistakes. It is harder to take if someone does not have a complete knowledge of the laws of the game and, more importantly, how to interpret them. I have had the luxury of formal training and many, many meetings at referee’s societies. Again, if anybody is unsure about any of the laws please feel free to post on here and or email me.
As you said in your intro, this seems to be an opinion. I would fully appreciate a more official reference (the actual FIFA rule/law).
While I understand that it is frustrating to lose a game after a valiant effort while being down a man, but two Sundays ago the roles were reversed. Race Street, down a player, played Vesuvio and we were winning the game with little time left and there was a similar “unintentional” hand ball from Vincenzo in the box, which resulted into a penalty being called. As I recall, there was nary a complaint from our side as Marco scored on the rebound and no Professionally licensed ref. came to our rescue after the fact, and also no research was done on our side either.
If I made a mistake, I will own up to it, in which case I might add that I have consistently been committing the same mistake for sometime now. So there certainly was no intention to take a point away from you guys specifically.
Conrad,
Thank you very much for volunteering your time to ref. the game!
As I said, Conrad - this law is constantly being mistakenly called incorrectly. As Michael Jackson said, “You are not alone.” I would suggest that anybody who is refereeing a game should first at least read the laws of the game. Here’s a link from FIFA’s web site where you can download the PDF
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/lawsofthegame.html
It is a huge document (100 odd pages long) but there is a general summary and a brief outline of the major laws. Take a look at the sections that you might not be 100% clear on. For example, I don’t think anybody needs to read about lining the field, method of scoring, etcetera, but check out the part regarding the awarding of indirect and direct free-kicks, i.e. inentionally handling the ball.
Another good resource that is a little more user-friendly is the BBC’s web page. I refer newbies to this page an awful lot.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/default.stm
So, from now on there will be no more incorrectly called direct free kicks or penalties resulting from an accidental touching of the ball by someone’s arm or hand, right?
Conrad, I am sure that nobody, for a second, thinks that you intentionally made that call erroneously to ensure victory for one team over another. All you did is make a mistake - you are only human after all. As long as we can all learn from our mistakes then it’s all good.
Now, where did I put my HIStory CD? I gots to listen to some Michael!
inentionally ? you know what I mean
the guy in the article makes a good point, but i have to disagree where he says “if the ball comes to the hand it’s unintentional” a player can stand still with ball coming from far away and not move his arm out of the way and i think that would be considered a hand ball by most refs.
if you are a defender in the box and have your hands out to your sides and a shot hits your hand instead of going into the goal or to a wide-open player i would also argue that this is intentional on the part of the player (knowing a shot or pass is coming and keeping his hands out where the ball might be going). if this were not true, then every human wall on a free kick would turn their back and put their arms up in the air.
here’s a perfect example of what i mean, no way the defender could’ve reacted in time, but i imagine almost ever ref would call this a PK right richie? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53SqOtuA2RQ
Toughest call in the game, I’d say. I don’t pretend to know what the “real rule” would have the ref do, but I think that the ref will give the handball call 9.9 times out of 10 in the situation we are discussing. And, as Conrad said, if he’s wrong, at least he’s consistently wrong because that’s how he always calls it.
Saw the video, and 2 things…
Firstly, that is Aussie rules football…
Second, Diego has lost some weight since.. but nice goal signor. Diego scored a penalty against vesuvio too right.
I would have to say it would be the discretion of the man in the middle.
this coming from someone who thought there was offsides on a 6
J/K bula!
Alex H. - re the video.
That is indeed a penalty because the defender moves his arms out to make himself a big target. He is ‘intentionally’ placing his arm in a position to block the flight of the ball. He had plenty of time to ‘intentionally’ move his arm out of the way of the attacker’s shot. He ‘intentionally’ chose not to, and thus we have ‘intent’. Stone cold penna!
The defender would probably try and argue that it was a case of ‘ball to hand’ rather than the other way around, but he intentionally placed his arm there. That was not a natural movement. When a defender is in the act of running his arms are flailing all over the place - if an attacker kicks the ball and it bounces into the defender’s arms as he (the defender) is running, that is not intentional - play on.
Yes, it is open to interpretation, however the law is very clear. There is not much wiggle room. I was always instructed to give the benefit of the doubt to the defender, so bear that in mind. Unfortunately 95% of players (in any league that I have played and reffed in, including professionals) do not know all the ins and outs of all the laws of the game - they just THINK they do
What if the defender is waving at his kids and telling them to stop playing in the muddy puddle at Sacks and then the ball hits his extended arm, is that a penalty? Or do the kids just have to run laps?
Note that most coaches have instructed their players to have their hands crossed behind their backs when challenging in the box.
In practice, it is much more difficult to determine ‘intent’ in such a situation. I have observed that most referees, even at the highest level of the game, seem to go by the very simple rule that : if the trajectory of the ball is completely changed, on a shot on goal by the defender’s arm/hand, it’s at the discretion of the referee to call it. As I have said, I’ve been pretty consistent in calling this, based on the much simpler laws of physics
Rich,
Of course you would give a defender the benefit of the doubt!
“if the trajectory of the ball is completely changed, on a shot on goal by the defender’s arm/hand, it’s at the discretion of the referee to call it.”
If the player does not INTENTIONALLY play the ball with his arm/hand it doesn’t matter. Let me give you a real world example, that someone raised at a meeting of The Leeds and District Association Football Referee’s Society, back in the day when I was officiating in England.
From a corner kick a defender was stationed on the goal line. A shot was directed on goal and hit the defender’s arm, thus preventing the ball from crossing the line. The defender was completely unsighted because he was ’screened’ by a much taller opponent who was standing right in front of him - the attacker dodged out of the way of the ball at the last millisecond and the ball hit the defender’s arm. Clearly, the defender did not intentionally hit the ball with his arm, but the ball bounced away to safety - i.e. it changed direction completely and a goal was prevented from being scored. The referee made the correct decision of “play on”, (however the match almost had to be abandoned because the attacking team went ballistic!) The Laws of The Game trump the laws of physics every time.
It’s a tough one, to be sure. If you’d like we could have a ‘virtual referee’s society meeting’. Describe for me exactly what happened on the play where you called a penalty and we can discuss it. Hey, do we know how to have a good time or what?!
I’d like to know where Fan stands on the topic at hand. I’m sure he, or she, knows what’s right and what’s wrong.
Fan, drop some knowledge on us.
Long Live FAN!!!
Conrad-
I did not post to single your call out, but rather to get some concensus about what a handball should be. Also, I don’t think it hurts to do one google search on the rules and post the results. I spent perhaps 60 seconds finding that opinion. Perhaps it is true that both the handball on Sat. and the one in Vesuvio vs. Race St. were both incorrect calls. Thanks.
-Ezra
Oh, and by the way, whoever this fan person is, they can suck it, yo.
I think diego has gained weight… if you ask me.
richie, since your time as an official referee in england the rules have changed drastically. enlighten us fa ref we don’t know anything about the game.
conrad, next time you should bring your laptop and if you are not sure of a call, stop the clock and do the research.
ezra, vesuvio is not mad at you for losing the game for them. they still love you. can I count on your vote?
long live fan for president!!!!!!!!
can’t we all just get along!
Fan - you are sooooooo boring. Drastically? Once again, you show your complete and utter ignorance. Oh yeah, and I still think you’re a bunghole - that hasn’t changed.
you are soooooooooo sensitive. I got more o’s in my so. ha.
Sooo….was this goal not legit???
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8mU7yhV9U2A
and what about this onee….
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7h0mJmRGHqc
Richie,
As a ref, what would your ruling be on Diego’s first video?
-Dave
My computer refuses to play that video
Deliberate handling of the ball = sending off
Concerning Alex’s video post, that’s not how the handball happened but I get your point. I was running next to Diego, hands closer to the side, as per Rich’s earlier post.
Fan, thanks for those kind words. Yes, you now have my vote. Sorry I told you to suck it. What was I thinking?
about porn..??? may be…
Being deliberately Argentinian = sending off
Richie Says:
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:49 pm
“if the trajectory of the ball is completely changed, on a shot on goal by the defender’s arm/hand, it’s at the discretion of the referee to call it.”
If the player does not INTENTIONALLY play the ball with his arm/hand it doesn’t matter. Let me give you a real world example, that someone raised at a meeting of The Leeds and District Association Football Referee’s Society, back in the day when I was officiating in England.
From a corner kick a defender was stationed on the goal line. A shot was directed on goal and hit the defender’s arm, thus preventing the ball from crossing the line. The defender was completely unsighted because he was ’screened’ by a much taller opponent who was standing right in front of him - the attacker dodged out of the way of the ball at the last millisecond and the ball hit the defender’s arm. Clearly, the defender did not intentionally hit the ball with his arm, but the ball bounced away to safety - i.e. it changed direction completely and a goal was prevented from being scored. The referee made the correct decision of “play on”, (however the match almost had to be abandoned because the attacking team went ballistic!) The Laws of The Game trump the laws of physics every time.
It’s a tough one, to be sure. If you’d like we could have a ‘virtual referee’s society meeting’. Describe for me exactly what happened on the play where you called a penalty and we can discuss it. Hey, do we know how to have a good time or what?!
Rich, you would actually call “play on” on that example clearly stopping the ball from going in, WOW! Way to go. I guess you would really not want to leave the stadium safe.
I actually received a death threat (from a guy who had previous for ‘manslaughter’) after refereeing a game in the projects in Leeds, so after that not much scares me.
Apart from Juan’s haircuts, that is.
Richie, I never cut your hair, I just shave your back
easy! that’s my goalkeeper you’re talking about